Image through index

A couple of questions on this citation. First, while the book itself has the name "Kirkebok" embossed on the cover, the archive calls it a klokkerbøker [digital name], Kirkebøker [on label], and Klokerbok [on label]. They all are very close when you translate, it's church book or the watch book. I used the name embossed on the cover and don't reference the other names directly.

Next layer 1 is fairly straight forward, the only catch is that the entire book is section E. In earlier parish records birth, marriage, death ... were all in one book with sections, that changes in this time frame to a specific book per event. Even though there are not separate sections in this record i still put in the section label.

Layer 2 represents a HUGE advantage for Norwegian genealogists, the Digital Archives. BMD and census records are usually scanned and indexed ALL UNDER ONE SITE!! Yipee. There are additional records also scanned and indexed. Not everything is scanned, but for BMD that's nearly 100%. Not all are indexed. So in this case layer 2 points to the digital index, and the permanent ID for the event. While the web address may change it's unlikely they will change the ID for the event.

Layer 3 is the image source. It also has the archive reference. I did not break the reference down into components, but did add the period reference. While you can get to the image from the index (using the scanned button), i've included the link in the citation

Given that most will find the source through the index, that is layer 2, it feels wrong for the index to be level 3. 

Vår Frue Parish (Trondheim), “Kirkebok [church book]”, 1922-1949, section “E Døde [Died],” p 56 (stamped), entry 41, buried 11 September 1930, Kristoffer Trondsen Søberg; indexed in “Digital Archives,” National Archives of Norway, permanent ID pg00000005447190 (; citing Regional State Archives in Trondheim, reference SAT/A-1456/602/L0150, period 602C18/1922-1949,  indexed image (, image 58 of 193.

Submitted byEEon Thu, 04/01/2021 - 10:05


The issue you are wrangling with is this: You are trying to cite two totally different things within one citation census. Those two things are

Your citation begins with the identification of the original church book, its page, and entry of interest. Your citation ends with the URL at which you viewed that page of the church book. But you are separating those two by a reference to a totally different creation: the website’s database abstract.

EE would handle the citation this way (using different colors for each layer):

       1. Vår Frue Parish (Trondheim, Norway), “Kirkebok [church book]," 1922-1949, section “E Døde [Died],” p. 56 (stamped), entry 41, Kristoffer Trondsen Søberg, buried 11 September 1930; imaged, National Archives of Norway ( : accessed 1 April 2021); citing “SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 602/L0150: Parish register (copy) no. 602C18.”  The archives’ abstract of this burial entry, accessible through the search function on the home page, is at, citing “Permanent ID: pg00000005477190.”

Note a few things here:

  • The location of Trondheim needs to be provided.
  • For Layer 3, where we say that the provider is citing ... [whatever], EE would cite exactly what the archive cites in its header above the image. Note that this includes the fact that the book is a “copy.”
  • The permanent ID is provided on the abstract page, not on the image. That piece of data should be grouped with the abstract.
  • The position in which you placed the permanent ID, between the title of the publication and the publication data, is a position reserved for data that modifies the title of the publication—example: revised edition.  The permanent ID number does not modify the title of the publication (i.e., the website title). It identifies the specific item of interest; the "item of interest" field is always positioned after the publication data. As a memory crutch here, just remember that a website is cited like a book: 

Author, Title of Publication, rev. ed. (Place of publication : date), page number or whatever specific item of interest.

  • The image number is not included because you are not citing a specific database to which that image number applies. The archive has many different databases with an "image 58."  (In this case, the "image 58" references the 58th image of that church book; but the URL for the image also provides that data. No citation police would slap your wrist for repeating it, but it's not essential and would be redundant.)

Submitted byLene Kottalon Thu, 04/01/2021 - 18:04


Klokkerbok does not mean watch book, but rather the clerk's book. In Scandinavia, church books were kept in duplicate, one by the minister and the other by the parish clerk. The clerk's book (klokkerbok) is the copy. 

The mistranslation arises because the word klokker means both bells and bell ringer. A parish clerk used to be called a klokker, because ringing the church bells was his responsibility. 

Lene D. Kottal 

Submitted bycryptorefon Sun, 04/04/2021 - 08:35

Thank you. I knew it was two different things, but didn't think about making it into two different sentences. Should have occurred to me, but that's why I'm still learning.



Submitted byEEon Sun, 04/04/2021 - 09:39

David, we're all still learning. Technology keeps offering new wonders and new challenges.